How high should the white bread rise

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How high should the white bread rise

First, a quick intro, as I'm new to the forums. I've been meaning to get seriously into bread baking for decades.  It was Jacob's podcasts and videos that finally gave me the push I needed.  I've always loved bread.  My wife and I will go to a restaurant, and they'll bring a nice chunk of freshly baked rustic bread after we place our order.  I'll start ripping through it, and invariably my wife will tell me I shouldn't eat any more bread, because I won't have any room for the entre.  She's got a point.  The bread is free.  The entre cost twenty bucks.  But the truth is that I usually enjoy the bread far more than the main course.  I should have just given them five bucks and asked for a hunk of bread.

I've baked a few loaves, and had pretty miserable success so far.  My loaves are always short.  I tried an italian bread recipe from thefreshloaf.com, and after five attempts, I've given up on that for now.  I've taken a few stabs at your basic white bread and I'm having better luck, but I'm wondering if my loaves should be taller than they are.  If so, where am I failing?  I'm just making single loaves and I follow the instructions to the letter.  I'm not completely sure I'm letting it rise enough. I'm proofing it for 90 minutes in a 77 degree box I made.  I kinda thought I'd be getting some oven spring, but I'm seeing none at all. The height when it's done proofing is the height when it's done baking.  I've included some photos below.  They may tell the story.  I did *not* paint it with egg yolks, as I thought that was purely for crust effect.  Might that have an effect on the rise?  Regardless, it was delicious.

Thanks for any help.

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It may be a yeast issue. How is you bread during bulk fermentation? Is it rising?

Normally you'd want to let it double in volume during the final proof, and then bake. The egg wash dose help a bit with expansion because the moisture helps to keep the crust from forming too quickly, allowing for a better oven spring.

In general though, when performing a bulk fermentation and proof, the times given a just guide lines; what you're really looking for is a doubling in volume during both stages.

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I might be letting it bulk ferment for too long.  My idea of "double" might be more like "triple".  I tried a different recipe yesterday that wanted less of a bulk ferment and it proofed pretty high.  I'm trying your white bread recipe again today and I'm going to bulk ferment less.  We'll see if that helps.  The yeast is a jar of Fleischmann's Bread Machine instant yeast that I purchased about a month ago.

Pat

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Chris Klindt
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Hi enchant,

Sorry for the issues.

Chef Jacob has an excellent piece on Baker's Percentage that you have read if not read it yet:
https://stellaculinary.com/cooking-videos/stella-bread/sb-001-what-bakers-percentage 

I am not a fan of Bread Machine yeast which is a quick rise yeast developed to make sure the bread fills the bucket in the time allowed. But for the time and temperature, you should be good to go.

From the picture you posted, it appears that you are using a 1.5 pound (2000 gram) loaf pan. This pan would need 1000 grams of total dough weight for a rise of 2 times the volume.

Take your recipe that you are using and figure out the total weight of dough from Chef Jacob's Baker's Percentage before baking. Take all the weight and add together for the final dough weight.

Chris

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Thanks Chris.  If you're right about the yeast, this could solve a LOT of my problems.  I've had terrible luck getting a decent rise, either at the proofing or the oven spring stage.  In my local supermarkets, they have jars like I mentioned, jars of Active dry yeast and small packets of Instant dry yeast.  What should I be using?  In Restaurant Depot's product database is "SAF 20/1LB INSTANT YEAST".  Might this be a better choice?

And I'll make the modifications that you suggested for my pan size.  The inside dimensions on the bottom are 8.5" x 4.25".

Thanks!

Pat

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Hi enchant,

You might have a loaf pan larger that 1.5 pounds! The easy way to figure out is to place the bread pan on your scales and tare the bread pan weight to to zero. Fill the pan with water to the rim with water and record the weight in grams. If the water weight for the loaf pan is 2000 grams then divide by 2 for a total dough weight of 1000 grams for the loaf pan to rise by double.

You can also do this with casserole glass cookware for a recipe if you work in grams. The above technique works also.

I have a loaf pan that is 3000 grams that was a set of 4 that my grandmother had. Institutional size.

I do not know what SAF 20 is anymore. I have used SAF Red for years. SAF is an IDY (instant dry yeast) and is very versatile. You can use it dry in the recipe or wet in the liquid before adding flour.

Take the 1 pound package of SAF that will be vacuum sealed, open it up and fill a small glass container for the refrig (label it) to use on your current recipe. The extra yeast will be transferred to another container to be stored in the freezer, it will keep for years.

Order of business, weight the weight of water that the bread pan holds. Convert the recipe that you are using to grams either by weighing each ingredient or the recipe for total weight.

I use 5 ounces of flour in my bread recipes for 1 cup of volume. 5 ounces is pretty much the average of all store bought flour because of density.

Go over Chef Jacob's Baker's Percentage again so it is fresh in your mind.

You will get there if you think about the process. Good luck.

Chris

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If the water weight for the loaf pan is 2000 grams then divide by 2 for a total dough weight of 1000 grams for the loaf pan to rise by double.

Chef Jacob's recipe calls for 950g of flour to make two loaves.  So if I was going to make the same two-loaf recipe, I'd have to increase that to 1750g?

Today, my plan is to make the bread exactly as I've done before, but using the SAF yeast I just bought.  I want to see what difference that makes.

Pat

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Hi enchant,

This is where I get sideways with recipes. What are 2 loaves of bread? Chef Jacob may serving for a dinner side meal of bread?

If I put that recipe into a 3000 gram loaf pan, I would be a short for the loaf to look right.

For the moment, only make one loaf scaled to your pan since you know the 50 percent size of dough weight.

Modify your Baker's Percentage like Chef Jacob since has already gone through the trouble of making an example. Somewhere on this site, I passed my thoughts on Chef Jacob to check my math.

I am going to Paste what I came up with for scaling. Take it what it worth but I think it is pretty close:

Brioche Bread

https://stellaculinary.com/recipes/baking-pastry/baking/bread/brioche-bread-recipe-sliceable-bread-sandwiches-and-toast-points

 

500 g Bread Flour 100%

300 g Whole Milk 60%

100 g Egg (2 medium eggs) 20%

5 g Instant Yeast 1%

15 g Sugar 3%

8 g Salt 1.6%

150 g Butter (room temp, cubed) 30%

Total 1078 grams of dough

---------------------------------------------------

Scaled to one full loaf pan

One pan of bread dough risen equals 650 grams

650 / 1078 = .60 (60%)

 

Bread Flour 500 g * 0.60 = 300 grams g (new 100%)

Milk 300 g * .6 = 180 g

Egg 100 g * .6 = 60 g

Yeast 5 g * .6 = 3 g

Sugar 15 g * .6 = 9 g

Salt 8 g * .6 = 5 g

Butter 150 g * .6 = 90 g

Total 647 grams of dough

 

  1. Scald milk by placing in a sauce pot and bringing to a simmer. Be careful not to allow the milk to boil over. Cool to 100°F/37°C
  2. Dissolve yeast into warm milk by whisking vigorously.
  3. Once yeast is dissolved into milk, whisk in eggs until fully incorporated.
  4. 
Add bread flour and diastolic malt powder and mix with dough hook attachment. Once no more dry flour is visible, turn off mixer, cover mixing bowl with plastic wrap, and allow to rest for 30 minutes (autolyse).

  5. After 30 minute rest, mix in sugar, and salt.
  6. Continue to mix with the dough hook, adding one pat of whole butter at a time, until the butter is fully incorporated.

  7. Once butter is incorporated, continue to knead with dough hook on medium speed for 10-15 minutes, or until the dough is cohesive and passes the windowpane test (see video for visual cue).

  8. Remove dough from mixing bowl, round, and place in a plastic container that has been sprayed with nonstick spray.

  9. Cover with plastic wrap and allow to sit at room temperature for 30 minutes, then refrigerate overnight (anywhere from 12-16 hours).

  10. The following day, remove dough from fridge and scale dough into 155-160g portions.

  11. Flatten portioned dough on the work surface into a roughly shaped disc. Fold each edge of the disc into the center, pinching the seams together, forming a strong crease.

  12. Bench rest seem side down while forming the rest of the brioche balls.

  13. Round dough by pressing the seam side into the table while making a rounding motion. This will give you a tight skin on the top, which will lead to better oven spring.

  14. Place 3 balls of dough in a 9X5" loaf pan (see video for more details).
  15. Cover with plastic wrap and allow to proof at room temperature for 1-2 hours, or until doubled in size.

  16. Once proofing is complete, brush the tops of the dough with egg yolks that have been mixed with a small splash of water.
  17. Bake in a convection oven at 375°F/190°C for 25-30 minutes, or until the top of the bun is a rich golden brown, and the internal temperature is between 200-205°F/93-96°C.

  18. Let cool at room temperature for at least an hour before slicing.

  19. For a longer shelf life, allow the bread to cool completely to room temperature and then wrap tightly in plastic wrap.

NOTES

SCALDING MILK

A lot of bread recipes that use milk will call for it to be scalded first (heating to a temperature of 180°F/82.2°C). This serves to deactivate the whey protein in the milk, which can weaken gluten structure, leading to a denser loaf. To achieve optimal oven spring, and to make the dough much easier to work with during the mixing and forming stage, scalding the milk and described in the above instructions is highly recommended.

INCORPORATING BUTTER

For best results, allow your butter to come to room temperature, and incorporate it one small pat at a time. The butter will have a tendency to ride up the side of the mixing bowl. When this happens, simply stop the mixer, and hand mix the butter back into the dough using the dough hook attachment.

 

MIXING BY HAND

Although the instructions use a stand top mixer, I actually prefer to mix this dough by hand. Once the mixing technique is mastered it can actually be faster than a mechanical mixer and the ingredients will be better blended. The specific technique used to hand mix this dough is called "frisage" and is demonstrated in this video here.

REFRIGERATION

Chilling the dough in the refrigerator overnight accomplishes two things. First, the slower fermentation will help to add complexity of flavor, yielding a tastier loaf of brioche. Second, because this dough has a high fat content, it will be extremely hard to handle and form at room temperature. This is why the dough is portioned and formed as soon as it is removed from the fridge.

For added flavor and convenience, you can delay the fermentation a second time after forming; simply cover the loaf pans with plastic wrap, and instead of allowing the loaves to proof at room temperature, place in your refrigerator for up to 16 hours.

When removed from the refrigerator, if the dough has already doubled in size, bake immediately as instructed above. If it has yet to double in size, leave covered at room temperature until the dough has finished proofing, and then bake.

When using this method, you may find that the yeast activates unevenly when baked directly from refrigeration, giving you certain portions of dough that rise faster than others. Best case scenario would be to pull the dough from the fridge once it's risen 1.5X its original volume, and then allow it to rise to a total of 2X its original volume at room temperature before baking. This "tempering" at room temperature will lead to a more even oven spring.

SKIPPING THE OVERNIGHT REST

If you're in a hurry, this brioche bread can be made in one day by omitting the overnight rise.

  1. After mixing, allow the dough to proof at room temperature for about 1 hour.
  2. Place in your fridge and chill for 2-3 hours.
  3. Pull dough from the refrigerator and form into loaves immediately as instructed above.
  4. Proof at room temperature until doubled in size, and bake according to the temperatures given above.

USING DIASTATIC MALT POWDER

An optional ingredient in this dough formulation is diastatic malt powder. I sometimes find that this scares people since they aren't familiar with the term, but it really is a normal and natural dough enhance. Diastatic malt powder is created by first allowing barley to sprout, after which it is dried and ground into a fine flour.

This releases an enzyme that when hydrated will help break up the starch in flour to simple sugars that yeast can more readily consume. This in fact happens naturally, all-be-it at a much slower rate, when flour is hydrated by water in any bread recipe. The addition of diastatic malt powder allows for more starch to sugar conversion which results in a superior oven spring, moister crumb, and a more shelf stable product.

However, this recipe will still be awesome without the addition of diastatic malt powder, so feel free to leave it out for sake of convenience or if you happen to be afraid of big words.

 

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Oops - double post, and I don't have permission to delete.

Pat

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Thanks again, Chris.  I measured and my pan holds 1750 grams of water.  So now I know how to size things.

That "20" in the description was them saying there are 20 1-lb packages in a case.  I just picked up a pound of the vacuum packed stuff.  The package looks like this:

Pat

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Hi enchant,

I am glad that you did not buy a case of SAF! Many lifetimes of yeast for you.

I know the picture as SAF Red. Good yeast.

So take your 1750 pan size and divide by 2 equals 875 grams. So an 875 weight of bread dough should fit the loaf pan nicely for a rise of 2 times the dough.

Now back figure your recipe and make a test loaf. Write it all down and use Baker's Percentage. From your test loaf, you will change your recipe and fine tune to where your are wanting to be.

Chris

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Well, I'm afraid that today's test wasn't any better.  It actually didn't look all that bad when I pulled it out of the proofing box (about 77F) after 2 hours, but when I sliced it, it deflated some, and went down further while I painted egg yolk.  It really doesn't look like I got a millimeter of oven spring.  I don't know that increasing the ingredients would make all that much difference, as the weight that I should have for my pan is only 14 grams more than Chef Jacob's original recipe.

Pat

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Hi enchant,

At first glance, I think you are over proofing your dough in your proofing box. or you have weak flour.

Two hours at 77 F seems like a long time. My dough will generally double in size in about 1 hour at 73 F depending on the recipe using 1 to 2 percent yeast in the recipe using SAF Red IDY. This applies to both bulk and formed dough in the pan.

I know that Chef Jacob's recipes work since I have used several of them, so we can rule that out. Stick with the recipe you are using to troubleshoot the issue. Make the same recipe again and not change anything in the ingredients. This keeps your process the same while looking at other factors.

Things to ask yourself.:
I am I over proofing the dough before baking? If over proofing, the dough is already at maximum loft and weak. You may not get much if any over spring.

What temperature is the oven baking at?

What is the internal temperature of the finished loaf? How long did it bake? The internal temperature should fall into a range of 205-209F. For the size of loaf, it should take about 30 minutes at 350 F to bake.

At this time the only that I would do different is your loaf proofing time at 77 F. Change the proof time to 1 hour instead of 2 hours.

Chris

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Thanks again, Chris. You're probably right, and I'll definitely keep using the same recipe.  I hate changing more than one thing to fix a problem.  I went through the same problems getting a pizza that I liked.  I had several ideas to improve things, but I know to only try one change per test.

I've got a couple things that will take me away from home enough that I won't have a several hour stretch to do any tests over the next couple of days, but I'll definitely try this again on the weekend.

Quick answers to your questions - I'm using fresh KA AP flour.  My oven temp is 350F.  Not using a stone, just putting the pan on a rack in the middle of the oven.  I baked for 30 min and the internal temp was just over 190 in the center.  Another 5 minutes and it was just over 200, so I took it out.

Now are you saying that I should reduce the proofing (second rise) to only 1 hour?  What about the bulk ferment?

Pat

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Hi enchant,

I want to go into another topic so you may be able to form a visual of what is going on in bread with CO2 (carbon dioxide).

CO2 is a byproduct of fermentation (yeast), a gas. A gas expands with temperature. In a confined cylinder, the gas can increase the cylinder pressure greatly in pounds per square inch. This happens until the pressure equalizes to the cylinder walls.

Think of a loaf of bread like a closed cylinder. The CO2 will expand until it equalizes with the cylinder walls. So like Chef Jacob pointed out with the egg was wash, you are slowing to the crust formation to form a closed cylinder. This allows the top of the bread to expand, called oven spring. This also can been done with water in the oven or steam.

Back to your issue of no oven spring and flat bread bread and why I think that you are over proofing your bread and the bread is falling. The yeast is at end of life (out of food). the CO2 pockets are already formed, the CO2 will only expand so much before the crust sets. The CO2 pockets shrink (lower pressure) as the bread cools, the bread falls in volume for a flat crust.because the CO2 has lower pressure in the cell walls of the bread will collapse.

I hope I have not confused you!

Chris

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Not confused, glad to have the education.  Putting it into practice might take some work, but I'm ready for that.

The only thing I'm confused about, and this might be the terminology, is what part of the process I'm waiting too long.  Is "proofing" specifically the second rise that happens in the pan?  And if so, you believe that my initial 2 hour bulk ferment is ok and I should just reduce the second "proofing" rise?

Pat

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Hi enchant,

You are correct!

There are +3 phases of making bread

The first phase is integrating the ingredients together for the hydration phase of the flour with water, also called autolyze. With a 15 to 30 minutes rest to make sure sure the flour has soaked up the liquid. After the rest, the dough is kneaded to see if the dough needs more water or flour (old school but the way I was taught many years ago).This leads to the second phase, the bulk rise.

Second phase - bulk rise - this can happen on the counter or in the refrigerator. Depending on the flavor profile you are looking for. In the refrigerator, the yeast has more time to ferment and allows more flavor into the dough from the yeast. This is not a critically moment. You can make bread 3 days ahead at this point. Generally 8 to 12 hours is suggested.

+3 phase, shaping the dough for rolls or the loaf pan. The pros like Chef Jacob make it look easy!

Phase 3 - shaping the dough for rolls or loaf pan. A critical moment! You will decompress the gas from the dough and knead for the shape, This does two things, the excess CO2 is relieved and O2 is added for the yeast to reduplicate.

Phase 4 was not included for the bread dough to doubled in  size, it is time to bake.

What I think that you are doing is in the Phase 3, you are allowing the dough to rise too far before baking.The bread has reached almost maximum loaf size from CO2. 

At phase 3, with shaping, you have added O2 in the kneading and shaping process for the yeast. The yeast at this point will expel waste gases as CO2. The CO2 gas will expand with with the baking temperature (psi). 

If baking in a loaf pan all sides are captured other than to top segment which would be the spring Think of a close vessel where there no where to go other than increasing pressure.

Bottom line, I think you are allowing Phase 3 to go to far. Only allow the dough to rise double its volume before baking. You can follow Chef Jacob's guide lines of adding more moisture to the top of the exposed dough to allow more oven spring because it will not dry out as quickly. Try without the added added egg wash and see where you are at. 

Make sense?

Chris

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Yes, I understand.  I figured it was my bulk rise that was too long, but I guess I was thinking that to have a bigger loaf, I should let it rise to that size.  This stuff will start to make sense sooner or later...

Pat

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Hi enchant,

Good luck! Let us know how the next bread turns out.

Just as point of reference from your last picture of the deflated bread in the pan. If you place half of the pan weight in dough, when the bread has risen to the top of the pan (doubled in volume), it is time to bake. With oven spring, the bread will expand farther until the crust dries and sets.

If you refer to the baked loaf picture where you had split the top (top view), you didn't get any oven spring because the cut is still knitted together instead of expanding.

Chris

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Yeah, that was a vast misconception on my part.  I was thinking that the more it rises in the pan, the more of a head start it has on the overall height of the loaf.

Pat

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No, I didn't give up on this.  I was struck down by a tick-bourne illness (not lyme).  I'm better now and back at it.

Today, I didn't use the proofing box at all.  I did everything at room temperature (about 67F).  I did the bulk ferment for 1.5 hours and the same for the proofing.  I proofed until the highest part of the dough had just reached the rim of the pan.  The final product is still short, imo.  What I'm looking for is bread that is as tall as it is wide.  Perhaps I'm still proofing for too long.  Maybe I should simply ignore what it looks like and what I think is "double", and just put it in the oven after 1 hour of proofing.

 

Pat

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Hi enchant,

Your bread looks good!

If I draw an imaginary line with my mouse pointer from the edge of the pan, you are getting oven spring that looks correct.

Even commercial loaves are not square, wider at the base than height.

Things you can to do to increase oven spring. Increase the liquid percentage by 1 to 2 percent (flour type make a difference here). Lower the oven temperature by 25 degrees to allow more time from moisture to expand before the crust sets. Use an egg wash to keep the crust tender longer. Don't score the top of the bread to keep the moisture in the loaf longer.

Start without scoring the bread. If the bread blows out on the side then you need to score or decrease the water content. If the bread is dry without much spring, increase the water in the recipe.

Oven temperature, if the finished dough is dense and doughy decrease the oven temperature or use less water in the recipe.

As you can see, the 2 important things depending on the recipe is percentage of moisture, oven temperature. The oven temperature looks correct.

As I look through your pictures, I would say at the point, do not score the loaf and see if the loaf blows out on the side. Also do not over proof the dough in the pan, let the moisture give the oven spring. The crumb looks really close, maybe needs 1 percent more water. Remember, there are two things going on with oven spring, the trapped CO2 gas pockets expanding with temperature and water vapor pockets expending with the temperature rise.

Looking good!

Chris

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Thanks for all the great advice, Chris!  It's much appreciated.  And I will definitely experiment more with this recipe.  It's absolutely delicious white bread.  I guess I'm shooting for something tall enough for a slice of american cheese for when I make grilled ham and cheese sandwiches.

I actually made another loaf yesterday to try an idea.  I retrofitted Chef Jacob's trick he used in his basic baguette video.  I formed a sheet of foil over the bottom of a bread pan and then put it over my loaf before putting it into the oven, sealing it all around the edge.  Left it on for the first 15 minutes of baking.  The loaf might have been a smidge taller, but we're talking only millimeters.  Your ideas about changing hydration and not scoring will probably have more effect.

Pat

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Hi enchant,

Chef Jacob really does have his act together!

But I would say, think about the science involved and what is going on.

Chef Jacob talked about the yeast and I do not like like quick rise yeast (bread machine). Also he talked about an egg wash which does two things, increases the shine on the finished product as well as extending the time before the crust sets to form a closed vessel to trap the internal gas pressure.

The idea behind the foil or sheet pan is to delay the crust formation to form a closed cylinder to trap the gas, a good idea!

I have never found adding a water pan in the oven or adding adding ice to the oven had much of of an impact on the final product since there are thermal eddy currents in the oven. It is all about infrared radiation.

You are very close to what you want! You are very close to target.

What I would like you to do is create a spreadsheet with you bread recipes using baker's percentage and listing the flour used in the notes and fine tune your recipe.

You are doing good! Try things like changing the percentage of water, changing the fat, etc and record with date and do not rely on memory.

Keep it up!

Chris

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Here is what I've been using as a recipe:

  • 475 g KAAP flour
  • 330 g (69.5%) milk (2% fat)
  • 37 g (7.8%) unsalted butter
  • 10 g (2.1%) sugar
  • 8 g (1.7%) kosher salt
  • 3.5 g (0.74%) IDY

Process:

  • Scald milk/butter than reduce to 110F
  • Mix flour/milk/butter and autolyse 15 min
  • Add yeast/sugar/salt and knead 3 min (speed #2)
  • Form into a ball and bulk ferment about 1 hour.
  • Degass, form into a loaf and into the loaf pan for about 1.5 hours.
  • Score lengthwise, then into 375F oven.
  • Check internal temp after 30 min.  Cook till near 200F.

I've actually got a fairly detailed log of what I've been doing from loaf to loaf, the changes I make to each and the results.  It keeps me from repeating mistakes.

Pat

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Hi enchant,

That looks like a slack bread dough recipe with 69% moisture. Do you have trouble handling the dough?  The pictures do not look like a slack dough recipe.  Do you have trouble handling the dough?

I generally use about 60-61% moisture with pan loaf breads. 

Slack dough will not support the weight of the dough and will want to run or fall. To give you a reference, try making a slack dough biscuit (drop biscuit). If the spacing is too far apart, you will end up with something that looks like a cookie. 

Increase your yeast to 1 to 2 percent to decrease the latency of the bulk and proof time. 

Do not over proof a slack dough bread, it will fall. 

Chris

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Hi enchant,

Since I am working between my phone and computer for response.

I would guess that your bread is falling when you slice the bread top prior to baking? Is this true?

You also need to increase the internal temperature of the bread to 205-209 but not at water boiler point a sea level of 212 degrees F.

Chris

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> I would guess that your bread is falling when you slice the bread top prior to baking? Is this true?

It definitely was when I was proofing for too long. It fell more when I painted it with egg yolk. On my last couple of loaves, I only proofed until the dough rose to about the height of the pan.  On these loaves, it didn't fall when I sliced it.

Pat

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.

Pat

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Hi enchant,

It is hard to troubleshoot a recipe when you keep changing the base. You started with a Chef Jacob and now you into another base.

So this recipe calculates to 48% moisture versus the last recipe was calculated at 68% moisture, Find a recipe and stick with it until done and figure out until it works!

I am going to profile you: You are in your late 50's or early 60's with some technical background but not engineering background. You are retired from work? How close am I?

Give a recipe that your are solid with and we will figure it out.

But in the last recipe you had dehydrated milk which will take away from the hydration level of the the flour water ratio. The water to flour ratio is still short.

230/474 flour equal what? Your guess plus the minus the water to hydrate to dehydrated milk.

If the dough is sticking to the bowl, it is a little slack. If it does not stick to the bowl, it is not slack. If the dough falls to the bottom of the bowl it is slack to very slack. All these observations are fine depending on what you want to create.

Give a solid recipe of what you are creating and pictures and you will do good!

Chris

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Sorry, I really didn't mean to confuse things.  I just wanted to point out a recipe that I tried that did work out quite well, comparing the yeast percentage.  I've deleted that post so that there will be no further confusion.  I've been posting here only to troubleshoot Chef Jacob's white bread recipe.

Give a recipe that your are solid with and we will figure it out.

Well, I'm solid with that whole wheat bread recipe, but since I *am*, there's nothing to figure out with that one.  I'd like to stick with the white bread recipe.

I guess since the dough isn't sticking to the bowl and I'm able to easily lift it out, I won't change the hydration, but will increase the yeast.

Pat

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Hi enchant,

I ran across this video that Chef Jacob did that goes over pretty much what you and I have been chatting about:
https://stellaculinary.com/cooking-videos/stella-bread/sb-008-why-my-bread-dough-collapsing 

You are really close on your technique and figuring out your kitchen. Your next loaf will be perfect.

Try a loaf without slitting the top and see if the blows out somewhere in the upper crust.

Happy New Year!

Chris

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Should I not make any other changes (hydration, yeast percentage) with this test?

Pat

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Hi enchant,

I as think about this, leave the recipe alone and make the bread like your first pictures you posted except do not slit the loaf.. The recipe is solid and works well.

With a 69 percent hydration, the crust should split during baking. Splitting of the loaf during baking won't affect the flavor, it just will not look pretty. This will form a sealed vessel and keep all the water vapor and CO2 in the loaf until the loaf crust is a golden brown and finishes about 205 degrees internal temperature.

Make sure that you are kneading the mixture long enough to form the gluten strands before bulk rising.

Do not over proof the dough during bulk or proof fermenting. You already know that the scaled recipe will fit the loaf pan nicely.

You are really close with this recipe.

Good luck!

Chris

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Well, if it's not pretty, I'm out.  No, but seriously, I actually like odd-looking bread. Let it burst where it wants to.  It adds character, and no two loaves are identical.  If I want perfect symetry, I've got a supermarket full of perfectly-shaped loaves.  And I assume I should paint egg yolk on the crust prior to baking.

When I first mix my dough, it has a very rough texture to it.  The 15-minute autolyze seems to transform it into a much more silky texture, and after the subsequent 3-minute knead, it feels like what I'm seeing good bread-makers get on videos.  I assume I should stick with the 3-minute post-autolyze knead.

Pat

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Hi enchant,

To me, the autolize step is important for the flour to hydrate.

Increase your post-autolize knead from 3 mintues to 8 minutes. Kneading time is a general statement.

The reason about the statement is that bowl sizes and shapes are different. Dough hooks are different. I believe that Chef Jacob's dough hook is more agressive than what you and I are using.

Just knead until the dough passes the window pane test.l That is how long you need to knead.

Chris

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Hi enchant,

I think this is what you are looking for.
I just throw this together and didn't care about looks. I followed the percentages that you are using in the recipe but with a scaled recipe to fit the loaf pan.
I scalded the milk in my sous vide water at 185 degrees F for 20 minutes.
I kept forgetting that the recipe is scalded milk. If plain water, the bread would have looked different.

The edge of the loaf just reached the edge of the loaf pan discounting the crown.

Top View:

Side view. Notice the crust is starting to crack but has not blown out.

Other side view. The crust is not cracking and looks good.

 

End view of the loaf

The loaf was baked in a Calphalon loaf pan 8.5 x 4.5 inch pan. 2000 ml of water full or 1000 g of bread weight. The reason that I went with a larger pan was your desire for a taller finished loaf for your sandwich.

I once saw a message that if you want to learn how Grandma cooks, you need to take a video because she leaves things out of what she does. Notice that the top of the loaf is fairly flat even with the crown? This come from from pushing the center of the dough more to the short end of the pan and letting the short side catch up with crown.

It has been a long time since I made this style of bread.

I believe you will get there since you are so close.

Chris

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That's a pretty spectactular loaf.  Ok, a few questions...

> I scalded the milk in my sous vide water at 185 degrees F for 20 minutes.

I'm afraid I don't know what "sous vide water" means.  I bring my milk/butter to about 190, and then turn it off. Should I keep it scalding at that temperature for 20 minutes?

> The edge of the loaf just reached the edge of the loaf pan discounting the crown.

What is that first photo?  It looks like post-proofing, pre-baking.  Am I right/wrong?  That's massively taller than what I've been going for.  I've been trying not to over-proof, so in recent attempts, once it gets to the height of the pan, I put it into the oven.  What I'm seeing there looks like a couple inches above the top of the pan!

> Notice that the top of the loaf is fairly flat even with the crown? This come from from pushing the center of the dough more to the short end of the pan and letting the short side catch up with crown.

I'm going to have to re-read this tomorrow and try to better understand what you're saying, because I don't completely understand that right now.

But again, thanks for taking the time to educate me on all this.

Pat

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Hi enchant,

> I scalded the milk in my sous vide water at 185 degrees F for 20 minutes.

I'm afraid I don't know what "sous vide water" means.  I bring my milk/butter to about 190, and then turn it off. Should I keep it scalding at that temperature for 20 minutes?

[You are fine with your stovetop/oven method.  Sous Vide is just another​ type of heating method that I started using to make yogurt.]

> The edge of the loaf just reached the edge of the loaf pan discounting the crown.

What is that first photo?  It looks like post-proofing, pre-baking.  Am I right/wrong?  That's massively taller than what I've been going for.  I've been trying not to over-proof, so in recent attempts, once it gets to the height of the pan, I put it into the oven.  What I'm seeing there looks like a couple inches above the top of the pan!

[I always use the edge of the dough for the 2 times rise for bulk and proof. The bread is proofed and ready to into the oven. Even though the recipe is 1000 grams for a 2000 ml pan the degassed bulk dough in the pan was 60% of the pan volume referenced to the side of the pan. For bulk, I use a tall rectangular plastic container that is marked using the edge of the dough.]

> Notice that the top of the loaf is fairly flat even with the crown? This come from from pushing the center of the dough more to the short end of the pan and letting the short side catch up with crown.

I'm going to have to re-read this tomorrow and try to better understand what you're saying, because I don't completely understand that right now.

[The uneven proof ferment comes from making biscuits where you press the center of the cut biscuit with your thumb to create an uneven dough just before going into the oven. This ends up being a flat top biscuit instead of a domed biscuit. With the bread dough, I did the same thing with more around the outside edge of the dough versus the center of the dough. In other words the bulk dough is just not pressed flat in the bread pan but is low in the center. -- Don't worry about doing this now. Just work on the 2x rise of the dough both in bulk and proof.

I autolyze for 30 minutes with a dinner plate covering the mixer bowl. I knead the dough for 8 minutes at speed 2 using the Kitchen Aid mixer. Chef Jacob shows what window pane dough looks like in some of his videos forming a thin transparent piece of dough.

I used the same percentage of ingredients that you are using even the 0.74% yeast.]

Wife and I ate about half the loaf last night.

Chris 

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Hi enchant,

For what it is worth, if I would have slit the top of loaf, the loaf would have come out about 4 inches square which is what you are looking for.

Have fun!

Chris

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Hi enchant,

I do not weigh the butter stick but measure the length in millimeters. This works with all sorts of things from tubes of meat, brick cheese, process boxed cheese, etc.

To form this in your mind, I am going to use a pound of butter with 4 sticks in the box. Each stick of butter weighs 1/4 pound, 4 ounces or 113 grams.

Each stick butter is 120 mm in length and weighs 113 g.

120mm / 113 g = 1.06 grams per millimeter

You are using 37 g of stick butter in your recipe.

1.06 g * 37 g = 39.22 mm

Measure 39 mm and cut the butter.

Chris

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Just started the process on today's loaf.  Autolyzing ATM.  I'm making several changes today, which is really what you want to do when troubleshooting something. frown  Increasing the autolyze to 30 min.  Increasing the final knead to 8 minutes. No scoring the top. I'm also switching to a different pan.  I've been using a Wilton non-stick pan up to now, but I have to wonder if the non-stickiness is insulating it from the heat, reducing my oven spring.  I do have a couple of old-fashioned silver/grey pans that are stained and tarnished, but they might be a better choice.  More to come...

Edit: BTW - I did measure the new (old) pan and it contains the same amount of water - 1750g.

Pat

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